The Gradient
The Gradient: Perspectives on AI
Joel Lehman: Open-Endedness and Evolution through Large Models
0:00
Current time: 0:00 / Total time: -1:38:52
-1:38:52

Joel Lehman: Open-Endedness and Evolution through Large Models

A conversation with Joel Lehman, machine learning scientist formerly of OpenAI and Uber AI Labs.

Have suggestions for future podcast guests (or other feedback)? Let us know here!

In episode 42 of The Gradient Podcast, Daniel Bashir speaks to Joel Lehman.

Joel is a machine learning scientist interested in AI safety, reinforcement learning, and creative open-ended search algorithms. Joel has spent time at Uber AI Labs and OpenAI and is the co-author of the book Why Greatness Cannot be Planned: The Myth of the Objective

Subscribe to The Gradient Podcast:  Apple Podcasts  | Spotify | Pocket Casts | RSS
Follow The Gradient on Twitter

Outline:

  • (00:00) Intro

  • (01:40) From game development to AI

  • (03:20) Why evolutionary algorithms

  • (10:00) Abandoning Objectives: Evolution Through the Search for Novelty Alone

  • (24:10) Measuring a desired behavior post-hoc vs optimizing for that behavior

  • (27:30) Neuroevolution through Augmenting Topologies (NEAT), Evolving a Diversity of Virtual Creatures

  • (35:00) Humans are an inefficient solution to evolution’s objectives

  • (47:30) Is embodiment required for understanding? Today’s LLMs as practical thought experiments in disembodied understanding

  • (51:15) Evolution through Large Models (ELM)

  • (1:01:07) ELM: Quality Diversity Algorithms, MAP-Elites, bootstrapping training data

  • (1:05:25) Dimensions of Diversity in MAP-Elites, what is “interesting”?

  • (1:12:30) ELM: Fine-tuning the language model

  • (1:18:00) Results of invention in ELM, complexity in creatures

  • (1:20:20) Future work building on ELM, key challenges in open-endedness

  • (1:24:30) How Joel’s research affects his approach to life and work

  • (1:28:30) Balancing novelty and exploitation in work

  • (1:34:10) Intense competition in AI, Joel’s advice for people considering ML research

  • (1:38:45) Daniel isn’t the worst interviewer ever

  • (1:38:50) Outro

Links:

Discussion about this podcast

The Gradient
The Gradient: Perspectives on AI
Deeply researched, technical interviews with experts thinking about AI and technology.