Flip it. How do you talk to the State is the central problem of many people. I too am very interested in education, and in fact started a charter school. My goal was to create an interest in students to see more through education, to enjoy that good old aesthetic thrill of the beautiful in the curiosities of the world. To give every student the experience that the so-called "gifted students" received. The love of moments of beauty in learning. That "wow" experience that I knew and love yet. Now to make this legible to the Imagine Schools corporation who would ultimately buy us a building and help write the charter to fight through the school board to accept the new charter school meant those were the wrong words. In the end the school was called the Penn Hills charter school for Entrepreneurship! We got the money we got the school. I failed at my mission. Imagine understood what I did not. No asses in classes, no school, no beauty, no nothing. I did not capture them, rather they captured me. The school has asses in classes it is no better, and in some ways worse, than any other public school in the neighborhood.
Really interesting, especially about games, I've been playing one game for 12 years, (Skyrim) never thought of it as a way to simplify complex choices so much as another land to inhabit.
Interesting! I played Skyrim just a bit around when it came out, but never got deep into it. I think one of the other keywords Nguyen emphasizes is agency—eg a game providing you new modes of exercising agency. Curious if that resonates at all, and whether Skyrim feels open-ended enough to you that it there aren’t clear/simple objectives you can latch onto?
Skyrim is an odd infinite game, in that it's both a place you return to, and it's not one that's prescriptive, it does not expect you to be or do anything. There are some people who exist as hunters within Skyrim, as in they camp out in the wild, occasionally going into a town to sell their goods, spend a night in an inn, then go back out again. I've spend 10-11 years in game and never played much of the main quest. This is an excellent video:
Yeah I read a good amount of the Carse book some years ago. It’s been a while since I’ve thought about it!
I’ll check the video out too—thanks for the rec.
If I had to think about Skyrim as an infinite game in Nguyen’s framework, I think it still has elements of what he considers a “traditional” game (agency and things you could care about, to an extent, proscribed by game designers and affordances of the game world). But you’re right that it doesn’t lay out everything you should care about for you.
You obviously can play Skyrim as a game, many people do. However many others spend years modding the game, (a meta game if you will) and then walk everywhere, so they can experience the world they've built. You get to know the land and it's people. Odd things happen. It becomes a destination in that sense. Though that link was good. Cheers!
Flip it. How do you talk to the State is the central problem of many people. I too am very interested in education, and in fact started a charter school. My goal was to create an interest in students to see more through education, to enjoy that good old aesthetic thrill of the beautiful in the curiosities of the world. To give every student the experience that the so-called "gifted students" received. The love of moments of beauty in learning. That "wow" experience that I knew and love yet. Now to make this legible to the Imagine Schools corporation who would ultimately buy us a building and help write the charter to fight through the school board to accept the new charter school meant those were the wrong words. In the end the school was called the Penn Hills charter school for Entrepreneurship! We got the money we got the school. I failed at my mission. Imagine understood what I did not. No asses in classes, no school, no beauty, no nothing. I did not capture them, rather they captured me. The school has asses in classes it is no better, and in some ways worse, than any other public school in the neighborhood.
Really great! I could listen to C. Thi Nguyen enthusiastically bounce around this set of topics all day.
Thank you for listening to us throw ideas around!
Really interesting, especially about games, I've been playing one game for 12 years, (Skyrim) never thought of it as a way to simplify complex choices so much as another land to inhabit.
Interesting! I played Skyrim just a bit around when it came out, but never got deep into it. I think one of the other keywords Nguyen emphasizes is agency—eg a game providing you new modes of exercising agency. Curious if that resonates at all, and whether Skyrim feels open-ended enough to you that it there aren’t clear/simple objectives you can latch onto?
In case you've never encountered it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite_and_Infinite_Games
Skyrim is an odd infinite game, in that it's both a place you return to, and it's not one that's prescriptive, it does not expect you to be or do anything. There are some people who exist as hunters within Skyrim, as in they camp out in the wild, occasionally going into a town to sell their goods, spend a night in an inn, then go back out again. I've spend 10-11 years in game and never played much of the main quest. This is an excellent video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_VzjFWrF6o
Also that guy makes mesmeric videos, recommended.
Yeah I read a good amount of the Carse book some years ago. It’s been a while since I’ve thought about it!
I’ll check the video out too—thanks for the rec.
If I had to think about Skyrim as an infinite game in Nguyen’s framework, I think it still has elements of what he considers a “traditional” game (agency and things you could care about, to an extent, proscribed by game designers and affordances of the game world). But you’re right that it doesn’t lay out everything you should care about for you.
I wish he and I had spent more time on this, but here’s an interesting review of Nguyen’s book that I came across _just after_ the conversation: https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/in-defense-of-wasting-time-on-c-thi-nguyens-games-agency-as-art
You obviously can play Skyrim as a game, many people do. However many others spend years modding the game, (a meta game if you will) and then walk everywhere, so they can experience the world they've built. You get to know the land and it's people. Odd things happen. It becomes a destination in that sense. Though that link was good. Cheers!